I recently had the pleasure of chatting with Hypebot’s Kyle Bylin (@kbylin) about online music marketing and my Berkleemusic Topspin online course. The interview originally ran on Hypebot in two parts, both of which are below.
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Kyle Bylin: Over the course of the last ten weeks, I’ve had the pleasure of taking Online Music Marketing with Topspin through Berkleemusic with Mike King (@atomzooey) as my instructor. Though, to be sure, I’m likely to a biased opinion of the course — for some reasons I can account for and others that I’m not as obvious to – I have to honestly say that I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the class and have thus far gained deeper understanding of online music marketing. Being that much of my work consists of exploring the more ‘theoretical constructs’ of the music industries, it has been great to gain actionable insights into the landscape before us.
I have had nothing but a positive experience with the online course, and although I do encourage you to take my perspective with as many grains of salt as you’d like, in my humble opinion Berkleemusic and Topspin have come together, synthesized a wealth of information, and made it accessible to people across various backgrounds, goals, and experience, which is no easy task. That said I do believe that the course achieves this very difficult task of both communicating this knowledge and making it so that it’s relevant and actionable to musicians, business people, and even minor media theorists like myself.
Since the semester is winding down and starting up again on April 5, and no doubt many you probably have questions regarding the course and about Topspin in general, it felt appropriate to speak with Mike King and open up the dialog on this subject. If anyone has more specific questions about the course for Mike or myself, please post them in the comments, and we’ll both do our best to respond. In the meantime though, do enjoy this interview with Mike (after the jump), and I hope, like I anticipate — that it’s of great interest to you.
For those of you who may not be familiar, Mike (@atomzooey) is Associate Director of Marketing at Berkleemusic, Berklee College of Music’s online school and author of Music Marketing: Press, Promotion, Distribution, and Retail, which you can get a free chapter of here.
Mike, one of the things we talked quite a bit about is ‘the curse of knowledge,’ which is, as brothers Chip and Dan Heath of Made to Stick have explained it, what happens when we know something, and it becomes hard for us to imagine not knowing it. In co-authoring a course like this one, how does ‘the curse of knowledge’ come into play, why is it so easy to take for granted what we know, and how did you overcome it, without oversimplifying the course material?
Mike King: That’s a good question. I’ve been working at Berkleemusic for seven years and teaching here for the past three, and it’s been really interesting to see the change in perspective from students. Early on, I’d see a certain percentage of students that were more focused on the old business model, like how to get on commercial radio, what do they have to do to get a record deal, how do they get coverage in Rolling Stone, and so on. I do think it’s based on what folks have grown up with and what they know. Back in the day, there were limited options for visibility; it was primarily TV or radio, and the record label was the necessary vehicle for getting this visibility. In a way, from an outside perspective, I can see that it is somewhat comforting to break up music marketing in these easy to understand segments, but the reality is that the options that worked for years—such as retail visibility via a co-op campaign, a national radio campaign, and print advertising—are not really viable options for most artists.
Over the past year or so, I have seen fewer and fewer students coming into the online classes focused on moving their career forward via those old school methods. There are folks out there— like Ian Rogers, Dave Allen, Jed Carlson, Mike Masnick, Seth Godin, Gary Vaynerchuk, Hugh McLeod, Dave Kusek, Patrick Faucher, Bruce Houghton, and yourself—driving home the fact that there are new and alternative ways to advance your career, which has really helped to enlighten a large subset of artists.
In terms of the Topspin course, I start off by presenting a sort of a “state of the union” of the record / music industry and let the facts speak on their own. For example, the top seven physical chain retailers accounted for 44% of music sales in 2008, and the fact is it’s getting harder and harder for the labels to work with these outlets. Last year, Circuit City—which was the 9th largest music retailer in 2008—ceased operations and Virgin Megastore began closing all of their U.S. stores. Borders (the 6th largest retailer of music) has cut back in-store floor space by 30% to 7% of total floor space. Transworld has been hemorrhaging money, too. Similar changes have occurred throughout other segments of the traditional music industry, too.
I don’t assume too much in terms of what folks know or what they don’t. I’m more interested in talking about facts and data, and presenting a toolset that musicians and managers can use to acquire more fans, create an optimized Website with an effective offer page, determine what the proper offerings should be for your specific tribe, and create an overall online sales and marketing plan that works for a student’s particular situation.
Out of ignorance, or maybe just plain excitement, some people in the marketing advice business tend to write off traditional institutions, in favor of the shiny new things that the Internet has come to offer, whereas you’ve taken a stand — even written a book I hear — empathizing the importance of the roles that they still play. Why is it crucial to have a dynamic marketing mix, on- and offline, and how does a platform like Topspin play into this equation?
Mike King: I think you have to engage in all marketing activities that apply to you. I have students that are at completely different stages in their careers, students that are focused on completely different genres, and students that are touring consistently and those who are not. It’s not right to tell someone to focus exclusively on digital if that person is selling CDs consistently on the road or if that person is creating music for a genre or psychographic that still wants CDs. For example, I’ve been working with a fantastic children’s music band called Debbie and Friends, and once you look at the demographic and psychographic of her fans (and the parents of those fans!), you can see why some traditional options — like the creation of CDs — make sense for her.
Certainly touring and a solid merch plan, both traditional marketing initiatives, make sense to engage in. And there are still examples of developing bands that have emerged from indie physical retail. Physical retail and distribution are much more convoluted than online retail and distribution from a process standpoint, primarily due to co-op and the returns process. But again, I think that retail still makes sense for a subset of artists at a certain stage of their career. Of course distribution follows marketing and it does not make sense to look for a distribution deal prior to demand for your product, but if there is demand and you are not fulfilling it, I think you are leaving money on the table.
I think it comes down to the fact that the Internet has provided much more choice and an opportunity for musicians to participate in the process where in the past they might have been left out. But I don’t think it’s a best practice to completely omit physical marketing from your overall campaign strategy if you are at the right stage in your career for it, or if your psychographic dictates that you engage with them in that way.
In terms of Topspin, I think the major benefit of the software in terms of creating a dynamic mix of online and offline strategies is multifaceted. First, there’s rich data pulled in from a number of sources right into the platform. You can see in real time what folks are saying about you on blogs and on Twitter, and engage with these folks immediately. You can see spikes in activity on Last.fm, Facebook, and MySpace, and use that information in whatever way you want to help focus and direct your campaign. You can also see how your fanbase is interacting with your content, both in terms of sales from your site, as well as with any widgets that you have released in the wild. From a physical standpoint, I think the data that you gather from Topspin can help you to more effectively nurture the artist/fan relationship, too. For example, you can sort your list of fans in any number of different ways, including by geography or by rank in terms of sales. So as an example, if my band is touring in San Francisco, I can sort my fans by those that live in the area, and then cut that list into those that have purchased from me in the past. I could then provide these super fans with free tickets to the show, or any other value-add to help nurture the relationship. Also, because all of the Topspin widgets are trackable, you can also set up content sharing contests, and reward your core influencers with something of value, or encourage them to take their online support offline per market. It’s a really robust and customizable tool, and Topspin supports creativity with its use.
More importantly, what segments of an artist’s marketing strategy doesn’t Topspin replace? And, why do you think it’s important to clarify that Topspin isn’t — at least not anytime soon — the music marketing equivalent of the Ronco Showtime Rotisserie Oven, you don’t just “Set it, and forget it!!” There will be countless hours (still) spent thinking, planning, testing, succeeding, failing, and trying the process all over again — with the exception that, for the most part, your efforts will be contained under one umbrella — that’s driven by data.
Mike King: I think Topspin is not a cure-all for the industry, nor is it the only tool that you should be using to put together an effective marketing campaign. There is no doubt in my mind that it is a great tool, and will benefit artists tremendously. But I think anyone who claims that they you can use their service to “set it and forget it,” as you say, is being disingenuous. There are truly so many variables and outlets that you need to think about and keep track of when you pull off your marketing campaign. For example, one thing that Topspin doesn’t do is distribute to third party online retail outlets like iTunes. Certainly the best practice for artists is to direct fans to their own site where they can provide tiered product offerings that are specifically geared to their fanbase, but the fact is that many fans are set in their ways and will continue to only look for you on iTunes or wherever else they routinely shop for music. I interviewed Derek Sivers for my book awhile back, and he had a really succinct thought on this topic: “There are millions of people who get all of their music from Rhapsody. If they search for you on Rhapsody, and you’re not there, they’ll forget you and move on. Same with eMusic. Same with iTunes. Same with Napster, etc. So make sure you’re available on all of these services. You are not hurting your iTunes sales by being on Rhapsody; you are only adding to your income.” I think this is accurate, and extends to direct-to-fan sales as well. While an artist’s sales margin can certainly be greater when selling direct to fan, the volume of sales an artist can see from established third-party outlets can outpace DTF sales, particularly for established artists. I would not recommend directing folks to a third party retailer from your site, but at the same point, you’d likely be losing sales if you do not have your music available on third party retail sites.
You also mention data in your question. Topspin is tremendous with data and analytics, but it’s not the only tool you should be using, in my opinion. Google Analytics is a fantastic tool for musicians (and Topspin integrates with it well). I also think Duncan Freeman is doing some really interesting things with Band Metrics, and there are dozens of other tools out there that help with analyzing other verticals like Twitter. I think that Topspin is a fantastic tool, but not the only tool you should consider.
Now, to maintain a certain degree of objectivity here and, at the same time, address an issue that’s sure to be brought up in the comments, I have to talk about the price tag on the course. It’s rather expensive. Blah, Blah, musicians don’t have that much money. But, to frame this differently, as put forth by Randy Pausch in The Last Lecture, “Brick walls are there for a reason. They give us a chance to show how badly we want something.” Why do you think there are there brick walls, like this and others, surrounding Topspin Media? What purpose do they serve? Are they there for a reason?
Mike King: I really think the course can be considered an investment in your future. I don’t see it as all that different than an artist investing in a new guitar or amp to improve their sound, or investing in Pro Tools to produce their music themselves. Along with super-serving your existing fanbase, a big part of direct-to-fan marketing is to use certain tools and techniques to acquire new fans that you can continue to communicate with for years to come. I don’t think it is unrealistic to think that the course is an expense that musicians can recoup down the line.
The course is three months long, and over that period we’re doing a dozen hour-long chats covering all aspects of online marketing in near real time, on top of the extensive written content and multimedia content. To be honest, the course would make a 250 page book if I was to print it all out, and it took about a year to write. The course was written by myself and Shamal, with input from multiple people at Topspin, including Ian, Gary Brotman (who runs the artist services side of Topspin), Adam Bates (who is the Director of Marketing and R&D), and many others. Also, I’m inviting many of the Topspin folks to our weekly video/audio chats, so you have the opportunity to interact on a one-on-one basis with them (and me) directly. I’ve also got a ton of media throughout the course, including exclusive videos with Ian, Adam, Peter Brambl, and Shamal covering general best marketing practices as well as presenting an in-depth view of everything you need to know about the software.
Plus, I’ve also got some top-notch instructors teaching the course, like Jason Feinberg, Jason Kadlec, and Jeff Straw, who are all living online music marketing and Topspin everyday. They are incredible resources. Lastly, there is no other course out there that teaches this stuff. I feel really proud of the content that we’ve created, and I legitimately feel it’s beneficial for all artists/managers that want to understand Topspin in-depth, and gain a professional level understanding of online marketing. In terms of the criteria that Topspin has set up for artists to use their software directly, I’m probably not the best person to ask. It’s public knowledge that Topspin’s business plan is fundamentally different than other services, which charge artists a fee, no matter how many sales they generate using their software. Topspin only makes money when the artist does.
From what I understand, part of the reason for the brick walls surrounding Topspin Media is to ensure that “best practices” are being used. For the most part, because of how radically they are intertwined with the degree of success that one might hope for when using the service. It’s sort of a “preventative measure.” To ‘prevent’ people who don’t know ‘best practices’ from using the service, from not getting the results they were expecting, and from getting upset with the service because it didn’t work like they thought it would. Why are best practices so important? How have you integrated them into the course material? And, why do they have such an impact on results?
Mike King: Certainly with any service—be it ReverbNation, Topspin, Nimbit, Bandcamp, or any others—it’s in everyone’s best interest that folks are properly trained on using the software, as well as properly trained on overall best marketing practices. You don’t want folks out there unhappy with the service when, in reality, it was a lack of understanding of marketing principles and best practices that is the core reason they are not seeing growth in their acquisition or sales numbers. All these services are just tools, basically, and like any tool, if you are not using it properly your results will not be fantastic. The course is filled with best practices, from proper optimization techniques to help with search visibility (which along with direct traffic is usually one of the highest converting areas), to ways you can help identify your psychographic, best practices with third party social media outlets and other acquisition focused techniques. We also go in-depth on forecasting models designed to help you estimate how much income you might see from your digital touch points.
As a side note, there are real numbers and strategies presented in this course from several artists that have been kind enough to provide a look under the hood of their campaign. So when we talk about best practices with landing pages and offer pages, or when we talk about the importance of upselling, we can see exactly what other bands have done, and what the results were. I think it’s very helpful to take this information out of the theoretical and bring it all into real life, which we do in most all of the lessons throughout the course. Overall, I think the course helps to provide a road map for best practices in one of the only growth areas in marketing, and in terms of results, because Topspin has been so open with sharing their data, you can see exactly what happens when best practices are not followed, too.
This, of course, brings up another important question… How would an artist or their manager for that matter, know if they are at the point in their career where an investment like this is justifiable. When you have conversations like this, as I imagine you have—countless times—what do you tell people? How do you go about determining if they would benefit from TopSpin Media, and whether or not they are capable of taking things to the next level?
Mike King: On the core level, I think you shouldn’t be marketing yourself unless there is a demand for what you do. This also goes back to your question on integrating physical and digital marketing. Let’s look at live events as an example. If you are playing in your local area, and you are not gaining traction, folks are not blown away by your show, there is little momentum with the fans, and your permission-based sign up list is not growing, then it probably makes sense to hit the woodshed and work on your music first. Topspin will not make your music good, and without amazing music and a killer live show, it does not make sense to spend the money on a marketing campaign. There are millions of bands out there, and your your music has to connect with folks in a way that 99% of the music out there does not. Once you start generating a real following, have demand for your product, and you can effectively identify your psychographic—this is when you should start marketing yourself. So I think you have to look at what is happening with your music and the response to it. Start small with your marketing efforts and, as you grow, think how a tool like Topspin or others can help amplify your existing efforts. Marketing tools are good at amplifying your efforts, but you have to have something there to work with first.
To sort of cap this off, what has your experience been like teaching a course like this for the first time? What are some of the biggest challenges you had to overcome—beyond “the curse of knowledge”—in writing this course? And, now that you and the other teachers have seen students interact with and learn the material, what are some of the realizations you’ve had, in trying to make your insights are as actionable as possible for everyone in the course?
Mike King: Writing and teaching this course has been deeply fulfilling for me. I was just at SXSW and met up with some of my students down there, including LJ Scott, Anthony Erickson from a band called Fulton Reed, and Susie Codd. We’re in week eleven in the course, and these folks are putting the best practices to use right now, and it’s just amazing to see the stuff we have been talking about for three months being implemented in a way that positively effects these musicians. I think all of us are looking for the way forward in the new music business landscape, and I feel grateful to present real information to artists, based on data and real world examples, that actually helps musicians to navigate their careers in a positive way.
In terms of challenges, some of this stuff is not easy to grasp the first time through. I’ve created flash animations, use videos, and have some audio in the course to help explain some of the more difficult concepts we discuss, such as the product pricing and forecasting documents that we go through. It was also challenging to present everything in a way that folks who are less familiar with the concepts could easily understand it, while also presenting the material in a dynamic way for students who are more advanced. Also, Topspin is developing new initiatives so quickly, that it has been challenging to keep up with them! The great part about the online course is that I can update this information on the fly—it is a living, breathing entity that I can adjust as necessary as new features are released by Topspin, as new third party entities are unveiled, and as some of the best practices that exist today change tomorrow. It’s definitely been interesting to see how the students have interacted with the material that we have written, and I’m sure we’ll make some adjustments based on the feedback.
